Can Christians lose their salvation? I don’t believe a person can lose his or her salvation. However, the Bible does address what we can lose after we have been “saved.” For instance:

We can lose our reward
We were saved to do good works “which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:10). We will give an account of those works, or of our lack of them. There is a possibility of loss and gain regarding good works. 1 Cor. 3:12–15 is clear that fire will “test each one’s works, of what sort it is.” We will suffer loss if our works were not built on the foundation of Jesus Christ. Are our works done for personal glory or for God’s?

We can lose entrance into the kingdom
Jesus saved us that we may enjoy the kingdom of God. According to 1 Cor. 6:9–11, if we persist in sexual sins, thefts, covetousness, and other carnal pursuits, we will “not inherit the kingdom of God.” So will we strive against sins, or shrug them off because God is merciful?

We can lose a prize
Jesus equips us with everything we need to finish our course with joy and receive a prize. In 1 Cor. 9:24–27, Paul recognized this and labored mightily, disciplining his flesh lest “I myself should become disqualified” for a prize. Since a prize is awarded only to those who earn it, shall we practice mastering the requirement—a faith that works through love?

We can lose forgiveness
We are saved by the blood of Jesus that we may appear before God with all sins washed away. But this future is not guaranteed. Matthew 6:14–15 tells us that if we confess our sins, the Father will forgive us. But if we will not forgive the sins of others, “neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” The possibility holds that we may appear before the Father in an unforgiven state because we won’t forgive others. (See also Matt. 18:21–35.) Shall we be washed in the blood of the Lamb through confession, repentance, and living in the light, or shall we neglect this freely-given resource due to pride and resentment?

We can lose the Lord’s approval
We have been saved from this world to labor for the kingdom to come. However, some will not take their responsibilities seriously. In Matthew 25:21–27, we find that Jesus will commend those who do well, and denounce those who hid their talents in the ground.

The Scriptures address many important issues regarding our salvation, but when salvation is misunderstood, we might ask the wrong questions. What does salvation mean to you? If you are concerned only with escape from the Lake of Fire, you have been misled regarding the fullness of your salvation. Jesus died for our sins to set us free from their power—shall we continue in them? Jesus rose again that He might give us eternal life, which is knowing Him and His Father—shall we prefer possessions of wood and metal that cannot give life?

Our cooperation is crucial. God has given us everything we need to arrive before the judgment seat with joy, with hearts overflowing with love, triumphant over sin, and full of good works to recount. Is this is your vision of salvation? If so, you won’t sit around expecting to be freed from the Lake of Fire, but labor with the Spirit to be free from sin.

–Steve Husting

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Comments
  1. randy says:

    A true believer is eternialy secure and kept by the power of GOD. It is crucial to understand what the biblical doctrine of perseverance does not mean. It does not mean that people who “accept Christ” can then live any way they please without fear of hell. The expression “eternal security” is sometimes used in this sense, as is “once saved, always saved.” R. T. Kendall, arguing for the latter phrase, defines its meaning thus:

    Whoever once truly believes that Jesus was raised from the dead, and confesses that Jesus is Lord, will go to heaven when he dies. But I will not stop there. Such a person will go to heaven when he dies no matter what work (or lack of work) may accompany such faith. (Once Saved, Always Saved, p. 19)

    [edited for brevity]

    God elected us for this very purpose. “He chose us in him [Christ] before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph. 1:4). We were predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ in all His spotless purity (Rom. 8:29). This divine choice makes it certain that we shall be like Him when He appears (1 John 3:2). From this fact, John deduces that everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself just as Christ is pure (1 John 3:3). His use of the word “everyone” makes it quite certain that those who do not purify themselves will not see Christ, nor be like Him. By their lack of holiness they prove that they were not so predestinated. The apostle thus deals a crushing blow to Antinomianism. (Richard Alderson, No Holiness, No Heaven!, p. 88)

    God’s own holiness thus requires perseverance. “God’s grace insures our persevering`but this does not make it any less our persevering.” Believers cannot acquire “the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus” unless they “press on toward the goal” (Phil 3:14). But as they “work out [their] salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12), they find that “it is God who is at work in [them], both to will and work for His good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13).

  2. randy says:

    All true believers will be saved to the uttermost. Christ’s High Priestly ministry guarantees it. They have been justified, they are being sanctified, and they will be glorified. Not one of them will miss out on any stage of the process, though in this life they all find themselves at different points along the way. The truth has been known historically as the perseverance of the saints.

    Perseverance means that “those who have true faith can lose that faith neither totally nor finally” (Anthony A. Hoekema, Saved by Grace, 234). It echoes God’s promise through Jeremiah: “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will pity the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me” (32:40, emphasis added).

    [edited for brevity]

  3. Randy, you wrote, “… Scripture is filled with warnings to people in the church lest they should fall away (cf. Heb 6:4–8; 1 Tim 1:18–19; 2 Tim 2:16–19). But those warning passages do not negate the many promises that believers will persevere:”

    On the contrary, the warnings expressly warn that the believer will not persevere if they reject the warnings. They will be saved, but they will not get a reward for faithful living.

    All the theory about perseverance and once saved always saved cannot override what the Lord plainly taught about two possible ends of the same believer, based on his/her works in Matt. 24:45-51. Jesus said nothing about perseverance based on the work of grace in the heart of the believer in these passages. If the believer continues to labor faithfully (in the grace of God, of course), he will be rewarded. If the believer decides God is not watching, and Christ comes to him unawares, the believer will not be rewarded. Where is the perseverance of the saints in this passage?

    The warnings are to keep the saints persevering. The knowledge that you may fall should help you be watchful and praying that you cling to the God who holds you up and is able to keep you from stumbling.

    The promises you quoted regarding perseverance of the saints are only for those who really walk in faith – who have a personal conviction of the greatness of their God. Those who love this world more than the one to come will not drink of the water that slays their thirst. They will come to Him, the Bread of Life, but not enough to satisfy their hunger – it takes time to develop that kind of relationship.

    1 Cor. tells us that Chris will confirm them to the end. Paul will later write that some have fallen asleep (died) because they abused the Lord’s Supper (1 Cor. 11:29-30). Were they confirmed to the end? Paul writes of many wonderful promises for the church, but he speaks of the ideal church. The true church will honor the Lord. It will look to the Lord’s coming. It will run with perseverance. But the church is full of people who will walk by Spirit and those who will walk by the flesh. We are pulled by the law and by faith. If believers do not walk by the Spirit and put to death the deeds of the body, they will be killed (Rom. 8:13).

    The writers of the NT expressly address the church – saved people, not a building, believers, not unbelievers. Spurious (false) faith is not the issue. The writers admonish their readers on how to live their lives. They do not appeal to them to regain their faith, for they already believe. They instead tell them how to live out their faith. You don’t tell someone of spurious faith to do more works! You take that person aside and go over the Gospel carefully to see where the person may have erred in his understanding of salvation by faith alone, in Christ alone.

    Steve Husting

  4. Randy, you wrote, “All true believers will be saved to the uttermost. Christ’s High Priestly ministry guarantees it.”

    What saith Scripture? Look again at the letters to the churches in the book of Revelation. To the lukewarm church of Laodicea, Christ warns them that He will spew them out of His mouth (3:16 – not a good thing). If they overcome their lukewarmness to be more attentive to the things of God, they will sit on throne and rule with Christ (3:21).

    I both cases, they are saved. Neither group will be cast into the Lake of Fire to burn forever. But I say only one group was saved to the uttermost – those who dealt with sin and were rewarded to reign with Jesus forever.

    Jesus’ high priestly work is in vain for those who fall away from faith and patience, as Hebrews teaches us. The example is given of the Israelites who perished in the wilderness because of unbelief and disobedience, and the readers of Hebrews could come to the same end and NOT be saved to the uttermost, with is for those who endure to the end.

    They WILL endure to the end IF they continue in faith, IF they pursue Christ, from whom all blessings flow. If they continue in faith, God will grant all grace for them to continue in power. They must come to the one who saves to the uttermost; they can’t trust in Moses, Abraham, self-righteousness, the law and sacrifices, and so on.

    Steve Husting

  5. randy says:

    (John 4:14),(John 5:24),(John 6:37-40),(John 6:47),(John 6:51),(John 10:28-30)(John 11:25),(John 17:24),(Romans 4:8),(Romans 6:23),(Romans 8:28-39),(1Cor 10:13),(2Cor 2:14),(2Cor 4:8-9),(2 Cor 9:8),(Eph 1:5),(Philippians 1:6),(2 Tim 2:19),(2 Tim 4:18),(Heb 7:25),(Heb 10:14),(1 John 5:13),(Rev 13:8),(Rev 20:12-15). The church at Laodicea was neither cold, openly rejecting Christ, nor hot, filled with spiritual zeal. Instead, its members were lukewarm, hypocrites professing to know Christ, but not truly belonging to him.(Matt 7:21, “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you, depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!

  6. Randy,
    The Bible defines what the church is. It is a group of believers who have been called out of the world. It is not a building housing believers and unbelievers. The epistle is addressed to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans. It is not addressed to unbelievers or hypocrites. The church building may have included unbelievers, but the letter is not addressed to them.

    If they were unbelievers, Christ would not tell them to overcome, but to confess faith in Him. He is calling the members to be zealous and repent (3:19). This is not what you tell unbelievers! Rather, this is what you tell believers who have lost their attraction to the Savior. To these people Jesus says, “As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten” ( 3:19). These are not words for the unregenerate, but for those Christ loves, those of the church.

    You wrote, “All true believers will be saved to the uttermost.” However, the Word of God gives a more nuanced view. Those believers who continue in faith and patience will inherit the promises; they will receive the grace and help they need from God to reign with Christ. But those believers who do not endure in faith and patience will not reign with Christ, and may even receive a “You wicked and lazy servant” from the lips of our Lord.

    The perseverance of the saints sounds good in theory, but it just does not square with all of Scripture.

  7. randy says:

    Is faith not a gift from GOD? Do you come to faith with your own understanding? You said,The Bible defines what the church is. It is a group of believers who have been called out of the world. It is not a building housing believers and unbelievers. Then you said,The church building may have included unbelievers, but the letter is not addressed to them. Is their unbelievers in the church or not? You are either called to salvation or your not. The Bible dose not teach that there are cold christians and lukewarm christians. It says some are drinking milk and some are eating meat. I noticed you did not respond to any scriptures that were given to you? As we both no GODS word is the final athority.I would like to know where your theology stands on justification and santification?

  8. Randy, you wrote, “Is their unbelievers in the church or not? You are either called to salvation or your not. The Bible dose not teach that there are cold christians and lukewarm christians.”

    The seven letters of Revelation were written to edify the church. There may have been unbelievers in the meetings with the believers, but they are not the church, so the letters are not talking about them. If the McCoys and Hatfields were gathered to a barbeque, and someone says a letter was written to the Hatfields, would it make sense to say that it must also be for the McCoys just because they happen to be in the same place?

    In the same way, the letters to the believers apply to the believers alone, even if unbelievers were in their midst. Since the letters don’t mention the unregenerate, it is not wise to keep unbelievers in mind while reading those letters.

    The people in the churches are Christians. Since those in the church were called lukewarm, and the Lord wanted cold or hot people (Rev. 3:15-16), then the Christians can indeed be cold, hot, or lukewarm. I don’t understand your reasoning, sorry. The Lord plainly tells us what they are and what they could be. So there can indeed be cold, hot, and lukewarm Christians. The Lord says so!

    Regarding justification, I believe we are declared righteous before God by faith in Christ alone, apart from works, as Romans teaches.

    Regarding sanctification, I also believe what Romans teaches, that we are to put off the flesh and walk in the Spirit, and turn from the law and walk by faith. As Romans warns, if a believer will not turn from sin, he will die (Rom. 6:16, 8:13). God delivers us from our carnality through the grace of God by faith. If we do not walk after faith, we will live according to the flesh and be slaves of sin. We always have a choice – sin to death, or obedience to righteousness.

    Read again Matt. 24:45ff and you’ll see that the same servant is in view – we may die saved and faithful or saved and unfaithful. If saved and faithful, we will inherit all and reign with Christ. If saved and unfaithful, we will not reign with Christ or inherit any rewards of the faithful (but we will still be saved).

    All the regenerate are saved, but not all are saved equally. Some are saved to joy, some will appear before the Lord in shame (1 John 2:28).

    I won’t go over all your verses. This is a poor venue for that approach. To go over all your verses would be better in a face-to-face talk, because it is too easy to jump around without really getting anywhere. This is not to say that I expect us to get together. I’m just telling you what I’ve learned from experience.

  9. Randy, start with the letters to the seven churches in Revelation and Matt. 24:45ff. Can you even begin to develop the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints based on those verses?

  10. You said that faith is the gift of GOD (probably in reference to Eph. 2:8). Is that the only way to understand faith? The Bible gives us a more nuanced approach to faith. Consider the following examples.

    In Matt. 6:30, we find “little faith.”
    In Matt. 8:10, we find “great faith.”
    Question: If faith is only the gift of God, then do some receive greater faith, and some smaller faith?

    In Matt 14:31, one of little faith can doubt.
    In Matt. 21:21, if one did not doubt, one could remove mountains.
    Question: If you have received faith as a gift of God, can you remove mountains? Why or why not, if faith is understood only as a gift of God?

    In Mark 4:40, Jesus ties the disciples’ lack of faith with being fearful over the storm on the sea. Same as in Luke 8:25, where He asked, “Where is your faith?”
    Question: Can the gift of God come and go?

    In Acts 14:22, Paul exhorted the people to “continue in the faith.”
    Question: Does that mean they can lose faith, and thus lose the benefits of faith?

    There are many more verses on faith, including the well-known Hebrews 11:1. Conclusion: The above examples show that there are degrees of faith. Faith is not a constant. Indeed, faith can grow and wane. So all the warnings in Hebrews make sense when they warn us to continue in faith.

    We can let our faith be so low that we cannot believe God in a a way that helps us resist temptation or help us to make hard choices. But we can also have the faith that gives us the confidence to say no to the world, sin, devil, and self. Because we can lack faith or have little faith, we may not endure to the end in the faith that receives the prize.

    We may let an event trouble us, and lose faith. How important it is to return to the Word and regain our faith in such circumstances!

    Are you troubled by the idea that faith, a gift of God, is such a variable? My Dad gives my young son pocket change when we visit my Dad. My son may increase that amount by doing his chores around the house. He may decrease that amount by forgetting where he put it or by spending it. Either way, the money was a gift from my Dad. What my son does with it is what counts. In the same way, what we do with the Gospel we first heard is what counts. Do we continue in faith and grow more and more, or not?

    The warnings in Heb. 3 point us to what God did to the Israelites who lacked faith during their journey to the Promised Land. (They showed their lack of faith by complaining and rebelling.) They were not told to have faith, but to obey, to act upon faith in a practical manner. In the end, they did not enter the land, even though it was promised to them by God.

    Heb. 4 tells us that if we too continue in unbelief, we will miss out on the Promised Land, which is reigning with Christ in the thousand-year kingdom to come. Reigning with Christ is promised to us by God, but we nevertheless will miss out if we do not end our lives in faith – which is the teaching of Heb. 11, “these all died in faith.” This is the faith we are to imitate and strive to enlarge. Watch out for those things that deprive of faith or “overthrow” the faith of some. But continue in those things that strengthen your faith.

    I hope these thoughts help you.

  11. randy says:

    Thank you steve for your response and the scriptue refrences. I am enjoying the compasion you have for the truth and the convictions you have. I to have a compasion for the truth. It has given me the opportunity to discuss doctrinal issues without conflict and strife. That is my goal as a believer in Christ. It dosen’t me I agree with your theology, but it does mean i am willing to listen to your points with respect. So my question to you is? You mentioned (Romans 6:13, 8:13). Regarding sanctification. were does it say in that ppassage, God delivers us from our carnality through the grace of God by faith. If we do not walk after faith, we will live according to the flesh and be slaves of sin. We always have a choice – sin to death, or obedience to righteousness. And what does this scripture have to do with sanctification? what about verse 14-23? Verse 18-13, what about 12-17? You mentioned Matt 24-45 where does it say this in the verse? we may die saved and faithful or saved and unfaithful. If saved and faithful, we will inherit all and reign with Christ. If saved and unfaithful, we will not reign with Christ or inherit any rewards of the faithful (but we will still be saved). The evil servant represents an unbeliever who refuses to take GOD seriously the pronise of Christ return. (2 peter 3:3-5). These versues have nothing to do with sanctification. If you would look to GODS word for what sanctification,you could start at ( 1 PETER 1:1-5), EPH 1:3-14). Again (1 JOHN 2:28), were does it say this in this verse. All the regenerate are saved, but not all are saved equally. Some are saved to joy, some will appear before the Lord in shame? What about verse 29? You said, I won’t go over all your verses. This is a poor venue for that approach. To go over all your verses would be better in a face-to-face talk, because it is too easy to jump around without really getting anywhere. How else can we exspain biblical truth wihout the WORD OF GOD? It is easy to reason away scripture, but were not called to reason away scripture. (2 PETER 1:20-21),(2 TIM 3:16-17). My understanding of your blog is that you belive a true believer can lose his salvation? please correct me if I am wrong. And we are kept by or own rightious faith? You stated that faith is not a gift of GOD? You said that faith is the gift of GOD (probably in reference to Eph. 2:8). Is that the only way to understand faith? The Bible gives us a more nuanced approach to faith. Consider the following examples. I agree with you that faith keeps us saved.( EPH 1:14). I don”t see any were in this passage were GOD demands any thing from us. He blessed us with every spiritual blessing, he chose us, he did this according to the good pleasures of his will, he made us accepted in the beloved, we have redemption through his blood the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of his grace, which he made to abound towards us, I could continue but I hope you understand what JESUS is saying here? It is all about JESUS he deserves all the crited. (Matt 25: 34) Then the KING will say to those on his right hand, come you blessed of my father inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. (2 TIM 1:9), who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace which was given to us in CHRIST JESUS before time began. Trusting your good works for eternal life is a dangerous road to travel. how much faith do you need? The only one GOD gives, it sealed by the HOLY SPIRIT. Do you have enough faith to believe that if you pray for a new car that your new car will be in your garage the next morning? What if it”s not there will you lose you salvation beceause you did’nt have enough faith? The scriptures you gave about faith in the BIBLE say the ame thing about faith GOD always bailed the dicples out . He did’nt let peter drown beceause of his little faith did he? Can some one truly be saved if they beleive they can lose your salvation? It leaves me to beleive that they are some how holding on to there own rightousness just like the pharisees.

  12. You misunderstand me. I do not believe a believer can lose his salvation. You misunderstand Matt. 24:45ff. It is talking about the same servant, not two different servants. “But if that evil servant says…” (24:48) refers to the servant in the earlier verses. This means we may end up saved and faithful (the first servant scenario) or saved and unfaithful (the second servant scenario.)

    I see you are a Calvinist. Believers have been arguing over these points for hundreds of years without reconciliation. We will not be reconciled either. I am firm in my beliefs as you are in yours. I wish you well!

  13. I will be happy to continue this conversation. If we will focus on only one issue at a time then we will be able to understand one another’s position. If we talk about ten things at a time, then we will not make much headway. Just pretend that you are talking to a person on the other side of the desk and talk about only one thing.

    In our case, why not talk about why you think the servants in Matt. 24:45-51 are two different servants?

  14. randy says:

    Steve, just so you no, I am not a calvinist. I do not take my beliefs from some teacher who tells me that GOD has boundries or what GOD can and can not do. Before GOD created the universe or man he was on his throne. Then GOD created man. And withen are sinfull fallen pride, we want to treat GOD as if he was created by man. So now we put limits on GOD, as if we are now in control of GOD. My beliefs are grounded in the gospel according to JESUS and nothing else. You said you wanted to talk about (matt 24: 45-51) I have no problem with that, but the more important issue at hand is your statement, can we lose are salvation? You stated if we lose are faith we will. You stated you can lose your reward, we can lose entrance to the kingdom, we can lose fogivness, we can lose the LORDS approval. Not once did you want to address the scriptures I gave you about your topic can you lose your salvation. That is an essential doctrine that cannot be ignored. (matt 24:45-51 first of all it’s talking about the LORDS second coming. The scripture is talking about two diffrent servants, one is faithfull and one is evil. JESUS calls him a hypocrit and his reward is hell. (Matt 22:13-14).

  15. Hello Randy,

    You wrote: “You stated if we lose are faith we will. You stated you can lose your reward, we can lose entrance to the kingdom, we can lose fogivness, we can lose the LORDS approval. Not once did you want to address the scriptures I gave you about your topic can you lose your salvation.”

    1. “You stated if we lose are faith we will.” I don’t recall making this statement.

    2. “You stated you can lose your reward, we can lose entrance to the kingdom, we can lose fogivness, we can lose the LORDS approval.” This is all true, according to the Scripture passages I gave in the article.

    3. “Not once did you want to address the scriptures I gave you about your topic can you lose your salvation.” I thought my article had already addressed that. A believer cannot lose his salvation. Specifically, A believer is saved eternally, even if he lives carelessly enough to lose his reward, lose the kingdom, and lose the Lord’s approval.

    I consider that if a believer wants all of these things, then the promises and warnings will motivate him enough to take hold of the grace of God so that he can overcome in every one of these areas. If a believer wants a reward, he can only get it by the power of God, not by the flesh. So he will learn to reckon the flesh dead and say no to sin, and labor for God faithfully. If a believer wants the Lord’s approval, he will labor according to the Lord’s ideas of faithfulness, with the grace of God. If a believer wants to rule in the kingdom and not merely be a subject in it, then he will meet the conditions of faith and patience mentioned in Hebrews. My articles on this site address these concerns repeatedly, with much Scripture. If a believer wants his sins not to be brought up at the judgment, then he needs to show mercy to others. The Lord taught this at Matt. 6:14-15 (which is in the article).

    I’m sorry I called you a Calvinist. When you quoted the Westminster Confession, I thought it was of Calvinist origin, and you were subscribing to his views.

    There is a reason why I chose Matt. 24:45-51 as a starting point. It shows that a believer has two different ways to end his life. The passage follows the Lord’s admonition to the disciples in 24:42 to “watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.” Then He gives them a example of what happens to someone who watches and someone who does not. Jesus warned them because He wants them to reign in the kingdom. What happened to the faithful servant? He was made ruler over all his goods. What happened to the second version? He lost everything and put with the hypocrites. a hypocrite is not technically an unregenerate person!

  16. randy says:

    Steve,I agree with you that Jesus was admoniting the disciples in 24:42 to “watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.” And if you go back to verse 24:36-44,36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. Were both men in the field saved? Were the two women at the mill saved? was the faithfull man saved and the evil man saved? You said; Matt. 24:45ff and you’ll see that the same servant is in view – we may die saved and faithful or saved and unfaithful. If saved and faithful, we will inherit all and reign with Christ(but still be saved)Please help me to understand how you got this belief out of (matt 24:45)? Know I would like bring your attention to (Romans 8 :28-30), 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Can you share with me you beliefs on this scripture text?

  17. ‘You said; Matt. 24:45ff and you’ll see that the same servant is in view – we may die saved and faithful or saved and unfaithful. If saved and faithful, we will inherit all and reign with Christ(but still be saved)Please help me to understand how you got this belief out of (matt 24:45)?’

    Jesus did not mention whether one was saved or not. Therefore we are not to consider whether the idea of salvation. Jesus was addressing the idea of readiness, not salvation. The idea is that if a believer is not ready, he will fare poorly. If a believer is ready, he will do well. You see that in Matt. 24:45-51, where Jesus paints a clear picture of a ready believer: someone who is doing the Lord’s will while the Lord is absent, and continues doing so until the Lord returns. This is a faithful believer who will reign with Christ, that is, will be ruler over his goods (24:46-47).

    The second scenario is of a servant, the same servant, who doe snot get ready for the master’s return. Jesus shows us what an unready, unfaithful servant is like. He neglects his own duties and engages in wrong conduct, such as abusing the other servants.

    There are not two servants in view. This is an example of what it means to be ready or to be unready. Conclusion: If you are saved, you can still make wrong choices that will hurt your chances of reigning with Christ in His kingdom. Therefore watch, that YOU may be ready! You can’t rest on a confession in Christ made long ago if you want to be ready for Christ’s return. Your confession long ago saves you – we are saved by faith apart from works (Rom. 4), hallelujah! But if you want a reward, then live as a ready, faithful servant.

    When you are satisfied with my understanding of Matt. 24:45-51 (though you may choose not to embrace the view), and you explain clearly why you believe these are two separate servants (explaining from the context of the passage), then I’ll be happy to go on to your question of Rom. 8. I really don’t want to jump around from subject to subject without coming to conclusions.

    Please put space between the breaks in your thoughts. It’s hard to read a solid wall of text!

  18. randy says:

    Steve, I do not agree with your view. The passage is about the illustration of the two servants. I agree with you that Jesus did not mention if they were saved or not, ‘You said; a hypocrite is not technically an unregenerate person! I agree with you, but Jesus clearly appointed him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Was he a unregeneate person? I think your view sounds good in theory, but it just dose not fit in this scripture. Try fitting your view in (Luke 12: 41-48), ‘You said;The perseverance of the saints sounds good in theroy but it just does not sqare with scripture. ‘You said; I do not believe a believer can lose his salvation. I get the impression that your trying to use (Matt 24: 45-51) to support your theroy that a believer can lose his entrance in to the kindom. Can you exsplain why a beilver can lose his entrance to the kingdom and still be saved?

  19. It’s OK if you do not agree with my understanding of the passage. But I would like to know how you reason that there are tow servants rather than one. I thought I made it clear that the passage is referring to being examples of readiness and unreadiness, and we will be one or the other. It doesn’t make sense that Jesus would make the first one saved and the second one unsaved. Then there would be no point to the illustration, according to the context. Please explain the point.

    The fact that the unready servant was appointed to the place of the hypocrites with weeping and gnashing of teeth tells me that Christians who are not ready, who have lived according to the flesh and not the Spirit, will be treated so severely that they will weep and grind their teeth over it.

    Luke 12:35-48 is a parallel passage to the one we’re talking about. It too is about readiness, not salvation, and presents the possibility that we’ll face severe judgment if we are unready. 12:39-40 even tells us that if we knew when the Lord was coming, we would be ready and not allow our house to be broken into. Since we don’t know when the Lord is coming, be should be ready daily if we want to keep our reward. We must watch against doing 12:45, where we think, “The Lord won’t be coming for a while,” and let the flesh take over. If we don’t live as those waiting for their master, we will turn aside to personal comfort and live for the world, then when He comes, we will end our lives in shame and not joy, as it clearly tells us in 1 John 2:28. If we don’t abide in Him, we will appear before Him in shame.

    Do you have a problem with a believer coming to weeping and gnashing of teeth? Yet we have God killing believers in 1 Cor. 11:30 because they mistreated the Lord’s supper. Again, the Spirit killed Ananias, and Sapphira – for LYING – in Acts 5:1-10. That is why, in 5:11, “great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things. If God will treat these believers this way for lying, then He could do the same for anyone in the church.

    This is why it is vital that you see the context of Matt. 24:45-51 as showing us what readiness and unreadiness looks like. If you can see that a believer can go in either direction, then you can see that punishment awaits a believer who goes in a path that dishonors God, and reward and ruling will go to the believer who honors God.

    But if we have hope that we may be like Christ, then we will take the Scriptural steps to purify ourselves, 1 John 3:3 We use the resources God gives us to be transformed into the image of His Son, such as the Word, prayer, the Spirit, worship, fellowship with the believers, the cross, enduring trials, abiding in Him, and so on. Then through these resources, God will make us like Him, as it says in 1 John 3:3.

    The book of Romans says the same thing before it gives us 8:28-30. Paul had already told us (before chapter 8 in Romans) what would happen if we go the way of the flesh. If we go the way of the flesh, then we are NOT in the group that will be transformed into the image of His Son. Before He created the world, God had decreed that a people will be transformed into His Son through faith. If you are enduring your trials in faith, then you are of that group. If you are not enduring through your trials still believing God (such as the servant who beats other servants and gets drunk), then you are not of that group that will be transformed into His image.

    Can a believer lose his entrance into the kingdom and be saved? The kingdom takes many forms. It existed in one form during Moses’ day, in a different form during our day, and will be still different during the 1000-year reign of Christ after He returns. Then it will assume yet another form after the 1000 years are over. It is the 1000-year reign of Christ that a Christian may lose. If at the judgment seat a Christian is not awarded a throne, a reward, or an inheritance, then he misses out on the 1000-year kingdom (Millennial kingdom). But the Christian believer will enjoy the kingdom after that with the new heavens and the new earth.

    This is why I say that a Christian may lose his reward and so on, but not his salvation. Again, there are many Scriptures on the above points. The word Kingdom is used repeatedly in Scripture, but they do not all talk about the same aspect of the kingdom. Some Scriptures refer to the present kingdom. Some to the Millennial kingdom. Some Scriptures are unclear to me which one they are referring to. In the same way, saved is used many times in Scripture, but very seldom does the context give it the meaning of “go to heaven when you die,” as most people suppose.

    We tend to simplify things, and thus miss the richness of the Scriptures.

    Again: WHY do you believe the servants in 24:45-51 are not an illustration of readiness? Why are they two servants? What is your rationale for saying one is saved and the other is not?

  20. randy says:

    Steve did you not read my respons? And again you are not responding to any thing i wrote. You want to continue press your views on (Matt 24: 45-51). Can you please answer: I do not agree with your view. The passage is about the illustration of the two servants. I agree with you that Jesus did not mention if they were saved or not, ‘You said; a hypocrite is not technically an unregenerate person! I agree with you, but Jesus clearly appointed him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Was he a unregeneate person? I think your view sounds good in theory, but it just dose not fit in this scripture. Try fitting your view in (Luke 12: 41-48), ‘You said;The perseverance of the saints sounds good in theroy but it just does not sqare with scripture. ‘You said; I do not believe a believer can lose his salvation. I get the impression that your trying to use (Matt 24: 45-51) to support your theroy that a believer can lose his entrance in to the kindom. Can you exsplain why a beilver can lose his entrance to the kingdom and still be saved?

  21. randy says:

    Steve “You said; Do you have a problem with a believer coming to weeping and gnashing of teeth? Yet we have God killing believers in 1 Cor. 11:30 because they mistreated the Lord’s supper. I do not have a problem with Jesus taking the lif of believers. As we no Jesus took the life of all the believers in the bible, just as he took the life of all unbelievers. And one day he will take your life as well as my life. What I do have a problem with is that believers will come to weeping and gnashing of teeth. This speks of inconsolable grief and unremitting torment. Jesus commonly used the phrases in this verse to describe hell. (Matt 13:40-42). So are you saying Jesus is sending believers to hell?

    Steve you said: (Luke 12:35-48) is a parallel passage to the one we’re talking about. Here I see one servant in view, not two. There is no evil servant mentioned in this text. Again does faithfull servant mean saved servant? Here Jesus mentions faithfull steward, his prodigality is a thread that ties this parable to the proceding one. Like the younger son in the earlier parable, this steward was guilty of wasting the resorces available to him.

    “Steve you said: The book of Romans says the same thing before it gives us 8:28-30. Paul had already told us (before chapter 8 in Romans) what would happen if we go the way of the flesh. What about, (Romans 8: 24-27)? Why do you not want to discuse what Jesus is saying in (Romans 8:28-34)? instead, you want to go to other scriptures to try and prove (Romans 8:28-34)? Some how you want to try and fit other verses into this passage, why dont you leave the other passages were they belong, and exslpain to me what Jesus is saying in (Romans 8:28-34). I am not intrested in your own opinion, are what you beleive it means to you. But rather what is Jesus saying. As we both no Jesus is the Word,(John 1:1-2). I would like to move forward and not discuse (Matt 24: 45-51). If you do not want to move forward? God bless you and and thank you for your time.

  22. Steve “What I do have a problem with is that believers will come to weeping and gnashing of teeth. This speks of inconsolable grief and unremitting torment. Jesus commonly used the phrases in this verse to describe hell. (Matt 13:40-42). So are you saying Jesus is sending believers to hell?

    The phrase does not speak exclusively of hell. It is what believers will feel when they find Christ disapproving of their lifestyle and they realize they have lived foolishly and they wish to take it back, but it is too late.

    It is what the unregenerate will feel when faced with hell. The phrase is not tied to heaven or hell, but how people will feel. It does not mention a duration of grief either. For the unfaithful believer, the grief will be limited. For the unregenerate, the grief will be lasting. You’ll get the duration from other sections of the word of God.

    I’ll answer your other questions in a few hours.

  23. randy says:

    Where in scripture does it say these words? The phrase does not speak exclusively of hell. It is what believers will feel when they find Christ disapproving of their lifestyle and they realize they have lived foolishly and they wish to take it back, but it is too late.

    It is what the unregenerate will feel when faced with hell. The phrase is not tied to heaven or hell, but how people will feel. It does not mention a duration of grief either. For the unfaithful believer, the grief will be limited. For the unregenerate, the grief will be lasting. You’ll get the duration from other sections of the word of God.

  24. Jesus said, “There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Where does He say it refers only to hell? Where does He say it refers to everlasting punishment? Where does it speak of inconsolable grief and unrelenting torment?

    You get those meanings from the idea of hell itself. From other passages on hell you’ll come to the conclusion of everlasting punishment and inconsolable grief. But you won’t get those ideas from “There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The ideas come from passages related to hell, not from the phrase we are talking about.

    You must read the phrase in relationship to the passage at hand. You saw that it relates to hell in one place, therefore you think it relates to hell ONLY, and in every other case. Not true. Have not people been weeping on earth? have not people gnashed their teeth on earth? Therefore it does not refer to hell alone.

    Consider this. Jesus is called the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. Does that mean that every time a lion is mentioned, it refers to Jesus? No, for in 1 Pet. 5:8 the devil is called a lion. The context of the passage will determine its meaning. The meaning of a word in one instance is not necessarily the case in another instance.

    It appears that you may not yet have the fundamentals of biblical exegesis to determine the meaning of a text. This site may help you get up to speed:
    http://www.biblicalresearch.info/page7.html

  25. randy says:

    Again you are not answering my responses. maybe you might? There are only 6 scriptures with the refrence of “weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt 8 :12. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

    Matt 22:13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

    Matt 25:30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

    Luke 13:28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.

    I would like to ask you were is the kindom of God in this verse? If you do not agreer that these scriptures are describing hell that’s alright. So whats your point about a beleiver weeping and gnashung of teeth? The scripture is clear in Rev 21:4, And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

  26. randy says:

    One thing i forgot, what does outer darkness in these verses mean to you?

  27. “One thing i forgot, what does outer darkness in these verses mean to you?”

    Scripture does not tell me what it means.

  28. “Again you are not answering my responses. maybe you might?”
    —This is one of the reasons why talking back and forth via blogs makes understanding so difficult. Your questions veer left and right. It’s hard to stay on track.

    There are only 6 scriptures with the refrence of “weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt 8 :12. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

    Matt 22:13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

    Matt 25:30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

    Luke 13:28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.

    I would like to ask you were is the kindom of God in this verse? If you do not agreer that these scriptures are describing hell that’s alright.
    —In Luke 13:28, the kingdom of God is the 1000-year reign of Jesus Christ. Those who end their lives in faith, as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have, will enter the kingdom of God. Those who end their lives unfaithful will miss the 1000-year period. They will, however, return again when the 1000-year period is over, and enjoy the new heavens and the new earth.

    So whats your point about a beleiver weeping and gnashung of teeth? The scripture is clear in Rev 21:4, And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
    —If there were no weeping and gnashing of teeth, then what tears are the Lord wiping away? He is possibly wiping away the tears of those who wept and gnashed their teeth.

    To get a fuller teaching of the punishment of the believer, and where he will spend time outside of the kingdom of God, you would do well to get the book which I reviewed in the Book Review section, The Rod: Will God Spare It?

    My point of an unfaithful believer gnashing his teeth when Christ comes He will treat him differently than the faithful believer. In other words, it matters how we live our lives. If you believe that all believers will inevitably end their lives faithful, then you are missing some teachings of Scripture. That’s all right – we don’t know everything, and we may not know everything until the next life.

  29. There are only 6 scriptures with the refrence of “weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt 8 :12. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
    —Context: Jesus sees that a Centurion has greater faith than the children of Israel to whom have been given the Word of God. He uses that to illustrate the fact that many Israelites will find themselves not enjoying the kingdom with their heroes of faith – because they don’t have the faith of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob like they think they do.

    Matt 22:13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
    —Context: 21:43, “The kingdom of God will be taken from you and give to a nation bearing the fruits of it.” 22:1-14 illustrates that point. The Jews did not bear fruit, but were actually going to kill the Son of God, so God was going to wipe them out and turn to the Gentiles.

    Matt 25:30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
    —Context: Jesus is illustrating what a ready servant is like and what an unready servant is like. A ready servant will give a good account of his service for the Master, while an unready servant will bury his talent and give a bad account of his service. For his bad service, he will be cast into outer darkness and weep and gnash his teeth in profound regret.

    Hope this helps.

  30. randy says:

    Steve, i’m going to get back to your blog, can we lose are salvation? I say no. beceause I beleive in the persaverance of the saints.

    [edited for brevity]

    It is all about Gods absolute sovereignty. If it was up to you for salvation you would never get saved. And if it was up to you to to keep your salvatoin you would allready lost it, I also beiliev in the doctrines of elections, That is why a true believer chosen by God wil perservere, because he keeps them. If you believe you can lose your salvation,then we make Jesus a liar and the truth is not in us.

  31. As I wrote in the article above, a believer cannot lose his salvation.

  32. randy says:

    Steve, out of all the scripture text I gave you not once is faith mentioned. And I could not find you are kept saved by your own faith.

  33. randy says:

    Steve, ‘you said; As I wrote in the article above, a believer cannot lose his salvation. Can you exsplain?

    We can lose entrance into the kingdom
    Jesus saved us that we may enjoy the kingdom of God. According to 1 Cor. 6:9–11, if we persist in sexual sins, thefts, covetousness, and other carnal pursuits, we will “not inherit the kingdom of God.” So will we strive against sins, or shrug them off because God is merciful?

  34. “Steve, out of all the scripture text I gave you not once is faith mentioned. And I could not find you are kept saved by your own faith.”

    I don’t know what you mean by ‘kept saved by your own faith,’ but Hebrews is all about keeping faith and patience to the end in order to inherit the promises. Hebrews 11 is about those who “died in faith” (11:13) and so God will reward them richly, specifically a “city for them” (Heb. 11:16).

    Hebrews is not about keeping faith in order to stay saved. I don’t believe in that concept. If you think I do, then we have miscommunicated somewhere. We are not kept saved by faith, but by God. As you can see by the article, we cannot lose our salvation, but we can lose other things.

  35. “Steve, ‘you said; As I wrote in the article above, a believer cannot lose his salvation. Can you exsplain?”

    As I wrote before, there are several phases of the kingdom. The kingdom was seen differently in King David’s day, is in a different form in our day, will be different again when Jesus comes again and sets up His thousand-year kingdom on earth, and will be different again, in the new heavens and the new earth.

    Jesus died to save us from our sins – from the punishment of our sins, the corruption of sin (that we may become more like Him), and the slavery of sin (that Jesus may be Lord and not sin). These are all different aspects of sin. If a believer turns to sin and does not want to let it go, and persists in that state til death, then he is still saved, but he will appear before Christ in the position he died – still in sins. That believer will receive a negative judgment and be cast into outer darkness. He will wait there until the 1000-year kingdom of God is over. The 1000-year kingdom of God is only for those who will reign with Christ.

    After that, all unfaithful believers will be let out to enjoy the everlasting kingdom in the new heavens and the new earth.

    Believers do not lose their salvation. They can’t keep their salvation by trying hard to have faith. Rather, the promises and warnings encourage us to live by faith, to abide in Him, to rise above sin by faith in God’s promises, to endure our trials by faith in the glories unseen that are promised by God, and so on.

    “The just shall live by faith,” we are told, and such a believer will have a richer life of salvation and sanctification than the believer who chooses the flesh. The one who ends his life in faith will reign in the coming kingdom rather than waiting it out. This is what I’ve been trying to show you regarding the Rev. 3 Laodician church. If they overcome and live by faith instead of my Mammon, they will reign. If they won’t, they’ll be denied the kingdom. According to Matt 25, those who produce greater fruits of their faith and labor will reign over greater amounts of territory – ten cities, or 5 cities.

  36. “Steve, out of all the scripture text I gave you not once is faith mentioned. And I could not find you are kept saved by your own faith.”

    The verses you gave me are expressions of faith. You cannot read Psalm 23 with confidence without a personal conviction that God is indeed your shepherd! All those verses are expressions of salvation being enjoyed in the present – by faith.

  37. randy says:

    Steve, I do not know who’s teaching you your theology but he is decieving you. ‘Steve you said; 1 Cor. 6:9–11, if we persist in sexual sins, thefts, covetousness, and other carnal pursuits, we will “not inherit the kingdom of God.” So will we strive against sins, or shrug them off because God is merciful? If you would read the whole passage. Verses 9-10, unrightous person , What about Verse 11? And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. Verse 9-10 unrightous person, verse 11, sanctified person,washesd, sanctified and justified. (Epherians 2:1) And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins. You no what it is to profess Christ? Absolutly nothing if your life dose not back it up. Confession with out obidiance is false cofession. (John 2:23-25)
    Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. 24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, 25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.
    Then you siid; That believer will receive a negative judgment and be cast into outer darkness. He will wait there until the 1000-year kingdom of God is over. The 1000-year kingdom of God is only for those who will reign with Christ. Were does it say this in the scriptures? It would be nice if you could back up your opinions with scriptures.

    ‘Then you said;
    The verses you gave me are expressions of faith. You cannot read Psalm 23 with confidence without a personal conviction that God is indeed your shepherd! All those verses are expressions of salvation being enjoyed in the present – by faith. Were in the scripture text I gave you does it say? The verses you gave me are expreesions of faith. Not one of the scriptures I gave you, said that they are an exspression of faith. Again I say, will you please back your own opinion wihh scripture. I no you can’t, so you fill in scripture with your own understanding of scripture.

  38. “The verses you gave me are expressions of faith. You cannot read Psalm 23 with confidence without a personal conviction that God is indeed your shepherd! All those verses are expressions of salvation being enjoyed in the present – by faith. Were in the scripture text I gave you does it say? The verses you gave me are expreesions of faith. Not one of the scriptures I gave you, said that they are an exspression of faith. Again I say, will you please back your own opinion wihh scripture. I no you can’t, so you fill in scripture with your own understanding of scripture.”

    OK, Randy, let’s put it another way. Go to a Christian you know and read Psalm 23 to him or her. Then tell that Christian that these are the words of a man who does NOT have faith. Then come back and tell me what that person’s response was. My observation was self-evident. All those passages were uttered by people who were believing God for what they were saying or writing.

  39. “That believer will receive a negative judgment and be cast into outer darkness. He will wait there until the 1000-year kingdom of God is over. The 1000-year kingdom of God is only for those who will reign with Christ. Were does it say this in the scriptures? It would be nice if you could back up your opinions with scriptures.”

    Someone else has already written exhaustively about the subject. As I wrote above, “To get a fuller teaching of the punishment of the believer, and where he will spend time outside of the kingdom of God, you would do well to get the book which I reviewed in the Book Review section, The Rod: Will God Spare It?” It has more than enough Scripture to back it up, so I wouldn’t go around calling the author a liar. I will not dwell on this subject.I can’t narrow down what was clearly and exhaustively written over several hundred pages. I was curious enough to buy the book. I did not expect it to change my think as much as it did. I know that if you are curious enough, you’ll get the book too. If you are not, then let’s drop the subject.

  40. “1 Cor. 6:9–11, if we persist in sexual sins, thefts, covetousness, and other carnal pursuits, we will “not inherit the kingdom of God.” So will we strive against sins, or shrug them off because God is merciful? If you would read the whole passage. Verses 9-10, unrightous person , What about Verse 11? And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. Verse 9-10 unrightous person, verse 11, sanctified person,washesd, sanctified and justified.”

    Is Paul contradicting himself? No: If they continue in sexual sins, etc., then they will not inherit the kingdom of God. If they continue in their sanctification, they will do well. If they continue in sexual sins, then they will not be washed nor walk in the way of sanctification.

    You can’t be washed in the blood of the Lamb if you persist in sin. You can’t be sanctified if you persist in the flesh and make yourself an enemy of God. this is self-evident. Thank God the Corinthian church had believers who were repentant and walking with God! Meanwhile, some were not, and Paul needed to warn them.

  41. Steve, i’m going to get back to your blog, can we lose are salvation? I say no. beceause I beleive in the persaverance of the saints.

    Randy,
    I’m going to take a look at the verses you submitted to me and comment on them. I assume you are choosing verses that show that saints will persevere to the end no matter what.

    (Psalms 23)
    This expresses David’s rest in God, as a lamb rests in the shepherd’s love. Oh, that more Christians would know this rest! I don’t believe all Christians will come to this place. It requires a heart with good soil, the kind that hears the word and grows with patience. This kind of fruit that David enjoyed takes time to cultivate, and in I think few are taking that time.

    (Psalms 48:14)
    David expresses confidence that God will guide him all of his life. Quite a few believers have doubts about God helping them in every area of their lives. Those who persevere in their faith will grow in the assurance that God will always be with them for good.

    (Ecclesiastes 3:14)
    With this verse, you are probably thinking that the “it” refers to salvation. If so, then salvation is “forever.” However, the previous verse tells us that “no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.” The next verse says, “And God requires an account of what is past.” Ecclesiastes is about what a man learns apart from God, from experience.

    (Isaiah 46:4)
    In this chapter, God is entreating the Israelites to give up their false idols and follow Him. He is telling them that He will do what the false idols cannot. He will carry them – meanwhile, the Israelites are forced to carry their false gods from place to place! This was spoken to a people who have turned from God. As the Israelites could turn away from God, so Christians can turn from God: Rom. 11:20-22. This passage is saying that as the Jews were broken off from the blessings, we too can be broken off if we turn from faith as they did.

    (Jeremiah 32:40)
    This prophecy says that in the last days Israel will once again return to God, and God will make an everlasting covenant with them. They broke the old covenant and crucified the Son of God and have been scattered over the earth in God’s fury. Yet God will bring them back to the land.

    (John 4:14)
    This is a wonderful promise for those who will abide in Christ. If we do not abide in Christ, we will wither (John 15).

    (John 5:24)
    This is another wonderful promise for those who hear His word and live according to it by faith. For them, judgment is past. For those who continue to be unmerciful instead of living by His word, they will face judgment (Matt. 6:14-15).

    (John 6:37-40)
    This is a wonderful promise for those who believe in God and love His will.

    (John 6:47)
    Another wonderful promise for those who believe, or have faith.

    (John 10:28-30)
    An encouraging promise that God is able to preserve His own by His own power.

    (John 11:25)
    A fantastically comforting promise for believers!

    (Jonn 17:24)
    An urgent plea from Christ that all believers will be transformed into His image. Alas, not all believers will be. This desire of Christ’s should be our own, then we would purify ourselves and find it happening in our own lives.

    (Romans 4:8)
    Romans tells us that this blessedness of God not imputing sin to us does not come by the law, but by faith.

    (Romans 8:17)
    We are heirs of God by faith – this part of our salvation we cannot lose. We are heirs of Christ conditionally, if we do not let suffering turn us aside – so this reigning with Christ (glorified with Him) is conditional.

    (Romans 8:28-39)
    If we are going the way of the law, as Romans teaches, then we are not those in the group that was predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. If we walk by faith, then we will be conformed into His image. If we are going the way of the flesh, as Romans teaches, then we are enemies of God and can’t be conformed to Christ’s image. Romans is all about “The just shall live by faith.” We are more than conquerors through Christ. We are not conquerors through the flesh.

    (Romans 14:4)
    This was said to those who are judging whether a brother should eat meat or not. If he ate meat sacrificed to idols, they thought “there must something wrong with him!” In spite of our weaknesses, God is able to make us stand, so we should not condemn our brother but love him.

    (1 Corinthians 10:13)
    Read the whole chapter. The Israelites were tempted in the wilderness and fell, dying short of the land God promised them. Those who believed Him (just two people!) went into the promised land. This teaches us that only those continuing in faith will enter the land (the 1000-year kingdom of God). Paul encourages us to continue to believe God and not fall away as the Israelites did.

    (2 Corinthians 2:14)
    These are the words of a man who has persevered with God no matter what suffering has come. These words of thanks to God are his testimony of God. Lazy Christians cannot say these words from the heart.

    (Philippians 1:6)
    This was spoken to the Philippians because of the proofs of God working in them – faith, hope, love. They were not spoken to the Galatians because they had turned from faith to the law, from Christ to Moses. To them Paul wrote, “I am afraid for you.” Paul has no confidence towards those who live according to the flesh.

    (2 Timothy 2:19)
    Did you read the passage before this? It speaks of those who have strayed concerning the faith. Those who are His are those who have departed from iniquity, and they will stand on a solid foundation, as opposed to those who feel they can confess Christ as Lord while continuing in sin. How we live makes a difference in how we end our lives. If we do not acknowledge sin, then sin will prevent us from being conformed into the image of Christ. This does not bode well for the perseverance of the saints!

    (2 Timothy 4:18)
    This is the confidence of a man who had endured much throughout his life for the gospel. He has found God delivering him again and again. Most Christians do not have this confidence, since they do not seek God’s help, but help from money, TV, etc.

    (Hebrews 10:14)
    Those who are being sanctified are, in God’s eyes, perfected already. This is a great comfort for those living for God who still feel their weaknesses and unworthiness. Not all Christians want the way of sanctification. If they prefer the flesh and the law, they are rejecting God’s means of sanctification, which involves the Spirit, faith and obedience.

    (Jude 1:24:25)
    God is able to keep us from stumbling! A wonderful thought. Let us learn the means by which He keeps us from stumbling: faith and patience.

    ( John 6:64-65)
    The word of God draws us to Christ. How wonderful to open the heart to God and find comfort in His presence.

    (Romans 9:14-24)
    This is a controversial passage. Paul is asking a “what if” question. What if God wanted to create people to destroy them? What if God wanted to create a people for glory? Indeed, we have some passages in Scripture where God had chosen specific individuals, such as Paul and Daniel. However, it does not mean that God has chosen every specific individual who will be saved or damned. That teaching is not clearly taught in Scripture.

    Randy, you wrote, “It is all about Gods absolute sovereignty. If it was up to you for salvation you would never get saved. And if it was up to you to to keep your salvatoin you would allready lost it, I also beiliev in the doctrines of elections, That is why a true believer chosen by God wil perservere, because he keeps them. If you believe you can lose your salvation,then we make Jesus a liar and the truth is not in us.”

    You have chosen an eclectic batch of verses! They range widely on a number of subjects. Again, I don’t believe a saint can lose his or her salvation. You still seem to think I believe that.

  42. Randy,

    I’m curious. If you abandon all of your beliefs to believe all the information I’ve written above, would you lose your salvation, or would the sovereignty of God preserve you? If you believe that changing your beliefs you will come to harm, then does your salvation depend on faith after all?

    If both of us are Christians and we believe differently, according to your beliefs we will both persevere anyway. If so, then the only point of continuing this conversation is simple curiosity, right?

    However, I believe what we think will make a difference – see again in Matt. 24:48-51, where a servant’s bad thoughts prove his undoing and he results in a bad end.

  43. Randy, kindly read the following verses. They are the clearest I’ve seen on how important it is to continue in faith if we want to be holy and unblameable in His sight:

    Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
    Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
    Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

  44. randy says:

    ‘Steve, you said; I also beiliev in the doctrines of elections, That is why a true believer chosen by God wil perservere, because he keeps them.

    ‘Steve, you said; That believer will receive a negative judgment and be cast into outer darkness. He will wait there until the 1000-year kingdom of God is over. The 1000-year kingdom of God is only for those who will reign with Christ. I have not found that scripture in the Bible, Can you please find it for me?

    ‘Steve, you said;The perseverance of the saints sounds good in theory, but it just does not square with all of Scripture.

    (Colossians 1:21-23), 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

    I do not see the word sometimes in verse 21.

    Verse 21, the greek term for” alienated” means’estranged,”cut off,’ or seperated’. before they were reconciled, all people were completly estranged from God. (Eph 2:12-13).

    Verse 21, reconciled, Christ substitutionary death on the cross that paid the full pentalty for the sin of all who believe made reconcilation possible and actual. (2Cor 5:18-21),(Rom 3:25, 5:9-10, 8:3).

    Verse 22, “Holy’ referse to the believers positional relation to God -he is seperated from sin and set apart to God by imputed rightiousness. This is justification.(Rom 3:24-26), (Phil 3:8-9). As a result of the believers union with Christ in his death and resurrection, God considers Christians as holy as his Son, (Eph 1:4), 2 Cor 5:21). Christians are also”blameless'( with out blimish) and “above reproach”.( noone can bring a charge against them Rom 8:33),(Phil 2:15). We are to be presented ti Christ, when we meet him, as a chaste bride ( Eph 5:25-27) ( 2 Cor 11:2).

    Verse 23, (Acts 11:23, 14:22), Those who have been reconciled will persevere in faith and obediance because, in addition to being declaered righteous, they are actualy madenew creatures( 2 Cor 5:17) with aq new disposition that loves God, hates sin, desires obediance and is energized by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit,(John 8:30-32),(1 John 2:19).

    You say you believ in the doctrine of election but i believe you are misunderstood about it. Gods chosen elect will never fall. But the ones who say there believers, but have not been chosen brfoer the foundations of the worldwill not make into heaven.

  45. Randy,

    The “if” of “if indeed you continue in the faith” tells me that the process of sanctification is conditional. If they do not continue in faith, then the process will not continue. If Paul had written “when indeed you continue in the faith” then you could have strong support for the idea of a believer inevitably continuing on to blamelessness.

    If means a statement is conditional. Here’s an example: “I’ll go to the store if I have time” means that I may go to the store, but it is conditional on whether time permits. If time does not permit, I will not go to the store.

    If a believer does not continue in faith, then he will indeed be blamed at the judgment seat and not blameless. That squares with all the other verses I’ve seen on judgment. See my blog section, “Jesus on Judgment” to read the verses in Matthew on how Jesus will judge us according to our works.

    We are not going to agree with each other, OK, Randy? We are just sharing thoughts.

  46. randy says:

    Steve, you said; That believers will receive a negative judgment and be cast into outer darkness. He will wait there until the 1000-year kingdom of God is over. The 1000-year kingdom of God is only for those who will reign with Christ. I have not found that scripture in the Bible, Can you please find it for me?

  47. Someone else has already written exhaustively about the subject. As I wrote above, “To get a fuller teaching of the punishment of the believer, and where he will spend time outside of the kingdom of God, you would do well to get the book which I reviewed in the Book Review section, The Rod: Will God Spare It?” It has more than enough Scripture to back it up. The doctrine is too large to cover adequately in this short space.

    We either reign with Christ in the Millennial kingdom or we don’t enter the 1000-year kingdom at all.

    —Matt. 24:45-51 shows that the faithful will be rulers over the master’s goods and the unfaithful will not. They enter according to their works.
    —Matt. 25:14-30 shows that the faithful will be rulers over many things and the unfaithful will not. They enter according to their works.
    —Rev. 20:4-6 mentions the blessed and holy who reign with Christ in the kingdom for a thousand years. No mention of believers present who do NOT reign there. It does not speak of believers entering apart from ruling, that is, as mere inhabitants of the kingdom.
    —Paul repeatedly tells us in his epistles that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God (Gal. 5:19-21). Reigning with Christ over a territory of earth is a significant part of the inheritance. No believer gets an inheritance without also reigning. this is seen in Scripture again and again. There are no examples of believers entering the Millennial Kingdom as spectators, only as rulers.
    —Heb. 3-4 tells us that just as the Israelites did not continue in faith and obedience, and so did not make it into the promised land (3:16-19), even so we can miss out on the coming kingdom (the “rest” promised by God), if we do not continue in faith and obedience (4:1-2, 4:6-11). [Heb. exhorts us to be diligent to enter that rest. Why? If we are already chosen and elect and will inevitably end our lives holy, what is there to be diligent about? Answer, we will be blessed and holy if we put off sin and unfaithfulness by the power of God and enter in.]

  48. Your approach to dealing with passages I bring up is typical on Internet discussions. When I show a verse that appears to go against what a person believes, then that person brings up a host of passages to reassert his beliefs. It would be better if that person explained how the “offending” verse meshed with the passages that he brought up. Otherwise, casual visitors will only see that the Bible seems to contradict itself. We don’t want that to happen, do we?

    Show how the passages I have given you mesh well with your belief system.

  49. randy says:

    Steve, now that your being faithful in everything you do. Does that mean that you are now sinless? And you are faithful enough to never sin again? So your faith keeps you from sinning? How much faith do you need? Is being faithful the same as never sinning again? How many sins can you make 1,2 three at the most? Before your cast out in to outer darkness? So God is going to now judge you on how many times you sinned or will he judge you on how faithul or unfaithful you are? And if your not faithful ehough God will send you in to the outer darkness to punish you for a 1,000 years. If thats what your saying? I believ every body who says there a believer will be there including me and you. According to your belief thats what the scriptures are saying to you. (How sad.)

    I guess (1 John 1:8-9) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. According to you this verse would’nt apply to you faithful christians.

    I guess( Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
    29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
    30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
    34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”
    35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. According to you this scripture would’nt apply would’nt to you faithful christian.

    ( John 6: 60- 66)
    60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
    61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
    66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. According to you this scripture would’nt apply to you faithful christians.

    God grants salvation and God does not cast out any true believer to the outer darkness. God will cast out all unbelievers.

    You said; Heb. exhorts us to be diligent to enter that rest. Why? If we are already chosen and elect and will inevitably end our lives holy, what is there to be diligent about? Answer, we will be blessed and holy if we put off sin and unfaithfulness by the power of God and enter in.] I hope you continue in your sinnless life, and you never waiver in your faith beceause if you don’t outer darkness is awaiting you.

  50. I am not faithful in everything I do. I struggle like anyone else. I do not have a sinless life. Where did you draw that conclusion from?

    Because I am a sinner, I am glad for 1 John 1:8-9.

    I don’t understand your point about John 6. But I know the whole Word of God applies to faithful Christians.

    You are confusing faith and works. There is no “quantity” to add up regarding faithfulness. As we see in Matt. 24:45-51, the master returned and found the servant still doing what he was told. This was faithfulness, and it was rewarded. The option is the second scenario, where the servant had moved away from doing what he was told by the time the master returned. This was not faithfulness and was punished. Can you undertand this in any other way? There is no interpretation needed here.

    You do not believe we will be judged by our works at all? Matt. 25:20, “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ ” Did this servant give an account of believing Jesus, or of his works?

    Matt. 25:21, “His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ ” Did the master judge the servant by his belief or by his works? By this verse you can come to a conclusion regarding what is necessary about faithfulness to get a reward.

    Please don’t bring up any new verses, but explain how Heb. 3-4 fit in with your belief system. I did not write it – God did!

    Regards,
    Steve Husting

  51. randy says:

    Steve, if you want to believe Gods elect will be judged for thier unfaithfulness and be cast out into outer darkness with weepping and gnashing of teeth for a 1,000 years. Thats fine with me. But i will stand on Gods promise to me, that i will never be cast out anywere. But into the loving arms of my savior. Beceause my Lord and savior promised me in his Word:

    John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

    God bless Steve

  52. I don’t pick and choose what I WANT to believe. I have given clear explanations for the doctrine I have found in the Word, and the doctrine has led me down an uncomfortable path. Nevertheless, if there is anything I WANT, it is to go wherever the Lord leads me.

    I believe you will gradually deepen your understanding of the Word and you will learn more about how to read the Bible in context. It takes time, but you have shown yourself willing to look up verses and test these things. That is an excellent first step, and many Christians have never taken it.

    You will hasten your education by attempting to fit into your theology the verses I have given you to study. My verses do not contradict your verses, for all of them come from the same Author. Let us be careful to make them fit as a whole.

    You and I both agree that Jesus has saved us by faith apart from works, and we both agree that the believer will never lose his salvation. We both disagree on the reasons for or the severity of a believer’s punishment. Read carefully the section Jesus on Judgment, for I have there quite a few verses where Jesus tells us how He will judge us. I believe the severity is plainly written for those who reject precious faith and Christ’s awesome sacrifice. We really do have a choice as believers. We are not robots.

    In your civility and desire to seek the truth, I think you are going to do well ahead of you. Take care, Randy.

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